By this stage, outsiders trying to make sense of Pope Benedict XVI’s approach to Jewish-Catholic relations might be forgiven for wondering if the pontiff suffers from an undiagnosed case of schizophrenia.
After all, this is the pope who made a point of visiting a Cologne synagogue in 2005 on his first foreign trip, and Auschwitz on his second, only later to revive a controversial Good Friday prayer for the conversion of Jews. More recently, this is the pope who rehabilitated a Holocaust-denying traditionalist bishop and who announced that Pope Pius XII (whose alleged “silence” during the Holocaust remains a bone of contention between Jews and Catholics) is a step closer to sainthood, only to visit Rome’s Great Synagogue on January 17 to express his “esteem and affection” for Judaism, and to pledge that the “faces, names, tears and desperation” of Holocaust victims must never be forgotten.
So, the obvious question in many Jewish minds likely is: Will the real Benedict XVI please stand up?
However understandable that reaction may be, there is actually a hermeneutic key to Benedict’s papacy, one that lends logic to what can otherwise seem like maddening inconsistencies.
Here it is in a nutshell: Benedict’s top priority is internal, directed at the inner life of the Catholic Church. His aim is to restore a strong sense of traditional Catholic identity, in order to inoculate the church against infection by radical secularism. That’s not just a personal hobbyhorse of this pope, but rather the culmination of 50 years of mounting concern inside Catholicism that the church has gone too far in accommodating the ways and means of the secular world. Today, this wave of “evangelical Catholic” energy is the most important policy-setting force in the church.
As a result, when Benedict XVI says or does things that affect Judaism, the key is often to understand that he’s not really talking to Jews but to other Catholics.
Thus, Benedict’s decision to revive the old Latin Mass, including that infamous prayer for the conversion of Jews, was certainly not crafted as a statement about Judaism. Instead, Benedict sees the old Mass as a classic carrier of Catholic identity, an antidote to any tendency to secularize the church’s worship. Likewise, Benedict did not lift the excommunications of four traditionalist bishops, including one who believes the Nazis didn’t use gas chambers, to endorse their troubled history with antisemitism. Rather, he did so because the traditionalists act as a leaven in the church, fostering appreciation for the Catholic past — even if their ideas on some matters lie far from the pope’s own thinking.
The same point applies to Pius XII. In his own mind, Benedict is not honoring the “pope of silence,” but rather the last pope before the Second Vatican Council (1962–65), and hence a figure who represents continuity with Catholic tradition before the liberalizing currents unleashed by Vatican II.
One corollary of his concern with Catholic identity is that Benedict XVI, on his own terms, is strongly committed to good relations with Jews — as well as Muslims, and followers of other religions — because he sees them as natural allies in the struggle against secularism.
That insight helps explain what may otherwise seem an anomaly about Benedict’s January 17 speech at the Rome synagogue. This pope is, after all, an accomplished theologian, yet the doctrinal sections of the speech were largely repetitive, made up of quotations from Vatican II and John Paul II. The most original feature was instead Benedict’s notion of the Torah as the basis of a “great ethical code,” leading Jews and Christians into common efforts against forms of secularism that exclude religion from public life, and in favor of the right to life, the family, the poor, the environment and peace. That’s what Benedict means when he talks about a transition from “inter-religious” to “inter-cultural” dialogue, with the accent not on new theological breakthroughs but rather new alliances in the social, cultural and political spheres.
It will be up to Jews, of course, to decide if they wish to accept the pope’s invitation. Yet it may help to understand that Benedict’s approach, as he understands it, is anything but inconsistent. It boils down to this: Let’s each of us be ourselves internally, and let’s see what we can do together in the outside world.
That, in a sound bite, is Benedict XVI’s “Jewish policy.” It might not be everything some Jews would desire, but at this moment in Catholic history, it may well be as good as it gets.
John L. Allen Jr. is the senior correspondent for the National Catholic Reporter and author of “The Rise of Benedict XVI: The Inside Story of How the Pope Was Elected and Where He Will Take the Catholic Church” (Doubleday, 2005).
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Schizophrenia is not split personality disorder, please do your research. Further, such comments made accessible to the public through the media only serve to strengthen stigma and stereotypes associated with mental disorders. Not impressed.
Open the archives now. The Church seems to be waiting until all the Holocaust survivors have died. What are they hiding? This Pope is an intellectual who is selling us a bill of goods.Words mean nothing. Actions are important. Open the archives and let us learn the truth about Pope Pius X11 and other significant issues effecting Jewish -Catholic relations.I for one cannot forget that he belonged to the Hitler youth.
I believe that your analysis is right on the mark. Pope Benedict seems absolutely compelled to draw lines rather than illustrate what is common. When he tries to illustrate commonality he draws distinctions, knowing that it is the distinction that is most important (for him).
Is this then Benedict's version of the position of Rav Soloveitchik articulated in Confrontation?
I'd like the pope , he is always the best
Rabbi Rosenberg,
I'm shocked you would bring up Hitler Youth. You know that young Josef Ratzinger was forced to do it and it was not something that he did willingly. And you also know that he deserted it as soon as he could, and if he had been caught, he could have been either jailed or even killed. That's not exactly the action of someone who agrees with Hitler.
As for the archives, the reason it's taking so long is that there are millions of documents from that era. Getting them organized into a proper fashion takes time -- a lot of time. What do you want -- the archives opened now when scholars wouldn't be able to make heads or tails of what documents are where, or opened when they have been organized and people can read through them with ease?
As for your analysis, John, you are spot-on.
Pope Pius XII was not silent and did everything he could to help the Jews. The SSPX bishops follow the traditions that were always taught before Vatican II so they are not anti-semitic. If the Roman Catholic Church (before VII) taught that the Jews and all false religions needed to convert to Catholicism then that is also true today. It is a fact and even Archbishop Fulton Sheen knew (by ex-communist Bella Dodd) that communists infiltrated the seminaries and are now in high positions in the church. Due to them, liberals, etc., we have a new mass where some great abominations have taken place in various churches throughout the world. The question is why visit a synagogue when the popes before Vatican II never did so. A break with tradition has not brought good fruits to the church. It is as Sister Lucy of Fatima remarked, "Diabolical disorientation". Pray the Rosary for the Pope that he "correctly does the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary" and releases the full third secret soon. See the website, Secret Still Hidden, for more information.
This article does not allow for the fact that true Catholics try to love all people and know the uniquely special place of their Jewisish "elder brothers" -- not just because Jesus, Mary, Joseph and virtually all of His first friends and disciples were devout Jews -- but also seek to reach out to estranged Catholics -- whether they miss the Tridentine Mass or belong to the Pius X society.
Nor does it allow for the possibility that Pius XII was much more than "the pope of silence" and may, in fact, have actually diligently done all he could to help Jews -- certainly more than virtually all other people of influence during the Hitler era.
Nor does it allow that Pope Benedict's "top priority" is to be as Christ-like as possible rather than merely driven by any political "policy" but, to be clear, if this pope might have any such policy, I suggest that it is to do as well as he can and trust in G-d, especially the input of the Holy Spirit.
My "sense of" this pope is that he always means well, always try to behave well and always enjoys a certain grace from the Holy Spirit -- and nothing less.
The animosity in the rabbi and many in the Jewish faith is appalling. If any Jew, particularly Rabbi, would be so kind as to pray for me, I would be very grateful for the spiritual gesture.
A word to Rabbi Rosenberg. The Pope was 14 years old, when the Nazis dissolve his class. They all must go to the military. The most of his class friens died. They all were child soldiers. They were gun food for Hitlers armee. All this children were victims of an crazy man called Hitler. What are the soldier children today in Africa or in other parts in the world ? Second the Pope wasn`t in the Hitler youth.
The archives will give us the truth. Open them up. What is the Church waiting for? Perhaps for the Holocaust survivors to all die who are the only true witnesses left. By the way , regular German soldiers and Nazis were also fodder for Hitler.
He was in the Hitler Youth. I agree he was not a fan of Hitler or the Nazis. All the more so, he should open the archives. What is the Catholic Church hiding? What is the truth about Pope Pious XII. We can send an army of scholars to put the archives in order. He did not mention one word about the archives in his carefully prepared speech. No response to the pleas of the Rabbis to open the archives. Animosity is mentioned by one reader. The Catholic Church and its teachings prepared the ground work for European anti-semitism and the Holocaust.Jews did not murder Catholics or expell them from their lands.The Cruscades was not a Jewish invention. Yes I still have a bit of animosity. Tell it to my parents who were in Concentration camps and to my murdered relatives including siblings and grandparents.Tell them not to have animosity.
Thank you, Mr. Allen. Your explanation that the pope is speaking to Catholics, not to the rest of the world, is only minimally helpful.
Mind if I take a crack at it? Thanks.
Okay, let’s see if I can make this clear. The pope deals/lives/thinks/believes within a sphere of Catholic theology. Certain assumptions that are inherent in this sphere are not obvious to those of us who stand outside of it.
One of the assumptions is that what happens in the next world is more important than what happens in this world. If a person lives a thoroughly miserable life here and now, but gets eternal life with God and with Jesus, well, that is a successful life.
To get that life, the surest, best, and perhaps the only, way is to get “healed” through the Church. That’s the Roman Catholic Church, not your local Baptists or Unitarians. The highest calling, of course, is to get as many people thus healed as possible.
Now, and I think we can understand this part, the pope is concerned with estranged Catholics. They carry the highest priority for the pope. Rather than emphasize outreach to non-Catholics, the pope has concerned himself with folks who have become alienated by those awful liberal tendencies that swept through the Church fifty years ago. These folks, who must be very dear to the Church—they are mishpocha, after all—must be brought back into the fold for the sakes of their souls.
So if the collateral damage is some scrapes with Jews, well, that’s just tough. We’re talking about eternal life, we’re talking about mishpocha.
Within the sphere of Catholic theology, this makes sense.
I did not understand this until I was pondering the sex scandals within the Church that came to light over the last 20 years.
Here’s what bugged me: In public schools, when teachers are found to have molested children, they get turned over to the police immediately. These teachers usually have molested only one or two children. There is no tolerance—the teachers are sacked, tried, hopefully convicted, sentenced to jail, and they have a record. They are registered with the state as sex offenders and are never permitted to teach again.
In the Church, at least until all too recently, if a priest has been found to molest children, the practice has been to take the priest out of the parish, have him sent to an intensive counseling course, and once he is deemed “cured”, he is sent to another parish, sometimes to another diocese. If the local secular authorities gets a whiff of the issue, he is whisked across country, or perhaps out of the country. Thus these fellows get to reoffend repeatedly, occasionally racking up dozens of victims.
And the children involved? To my knowledge, until very recently nothing was done at all for them.
This did not make sense to me until I looked at it from the issue of salvation. Then it made perfect sense: the child is innocent; he or she has no blot on his or her soul. His or her salvation is not at issue. It is the priest that has the problem; he has committed a sin, and that sin must be dealt with. So the resources of the community are poured into fixing him, curing him. And once he is cured, as deemed by the counselors, he’s good to go.
From within the sphere of Catholic theology, this world view is consistent and makes much sense.
It’s only to us, standing outside, that it appears insane.
Greetings Everyone and may G-d richly bless us all,
First of all, the lifting of the ex-communication of the bishop from the SSPX society and the statements that made bishop made denying the Holocaust are two different, unrelated events. Once that bishop was brought back into the Catholic Church Pope Benedict XVI fired him for making the Holocaust statements. He is not the shepherd of his diocese anymore. The newsmedia distorted the events there trying to trick people, especially Jews, into thinking the two events were related. He was ex-communicated by Pope John Paul II for taking his flock into schism over disagreements on Vatican II and the Tridentine Mass. He repented of that and the new Pope lifted the ex-communication restoring him to the Church. It was during that restoration when the bishop then made the Holocaust remarks for which the Pope subsequently removed him as bishop of his diocese. The media sort of left that part out hoping to cause further dissention between Jews and Catholics as the media is both anti-Semetic and anti-Catholic.
Secondly, when Josef Ratzinger was compelled to join the Hitler youth he actually did not spend very much time with them as he had superiors who favored him and allowed him to quietly slip away to attend to his studies. His entire family hated the Nazis and what they were doing.
Thirdly, the "controversial" prayer during Lent for the conversion of the Jews in not controverial inside the Church. When we pray for the Jews during this prayer, said once a year on Good Friday, is that the Jews would come to recognize Jesus as their long awaited Messiah. Catholics are not taught to look at Jews as being unsaved so the prayer is not about salvation but more about Jews and Catholic coming together in common belief. We have been longing for this for two thousand years and have been praying for this that long. There are a total of ten prayers that are said for various groups of people in the world. One of the prayers is for those who do not believe in Christ. The prayer for the Jews is higher then that one and asks G-d to continue to bless the Jews, the first to hear the word of G-d. So even here the Jews are not being looked upon as those who do not believe in Christ since the Jews do believe in the comming Meshiah, who is Christ. They just don't believe that it is Jesus as we do.
No one in the Catholic Church who is faithful and animated by the love of G-d harbors any ill feeling towards the Jews. Those that do harbor such feelings then that is a sign that they may be estranged from G-d.
I went to Catholic school in the 60's from 1st to 5th grade. This is where I learned about my Catholic faith and also I learned about the Jews and their history and who they were. At any time some one could walk into the classroom and ask the class, "Who are the Jews?" You would hear the class all say, "The Jews are G-ds chosen people." The sisters who taught us about our faith instilled in us only love and respect for Jews, Judaism, and all things Jewish and I still have those feeling today for Jews. During the Lenten prayers when study the passion of Jesus and His crucifixion we pray those prayers of sorrow identifying ourselves as the ones guilty of Christ's death, guilty because of our sins. At no time did any teacher point the finger at the Jews.
Out in the world there those with bad intentions who go to great lengths to cause hatred between peoples. There greatest weapon is to publish distortions of what happened in the past in order to incite hatred and animosity were there should be none. While the Catholic Church, during her two thousand year history, is guilty of crimes against the Jewish people, much of what we have been accused of are distorions, rewrites of what acutally happened. Most Catholics have only love for the Jews, especially our new pope, Pope Benedict XVI.
Rabbi Rosenberg, if it seems that the Church is taking its time to open the archives concerning Pope Pius XII there is probally a good reason for it without any mal intentions towards the Jews or any one else. It really pains me when people acuse the Pope of malicious intentions; when you do it only shows that you don't know him very well and you are falling prey to your frustrations. Pope Pius XII had been the victim, since his death, of a tremendous amount of false accusations, maligning his reputations. These accusations are coming from anti-Semites that hate him because he was so successful at saving 800,000 Jews from the Nazis using Vatican resources. They destroy his reputation because he saved Jews during the war. Did you ever consider that? If Pope Pius XII had been more vocal against Hitler, Hitler would have focused on him and he would not have been able to save as many Jews as he did. It was in quiet and in secret that worked so hard to save as many Jews as he could using as much of the Vatican resources as he could. Remember, the Vatican is in Rome and Rome was under control of the Nazis. You cannot work secretly saving Jews while at the same time shouting at Hitler. You could do one or the other. The Pope picked saving as many Jews as he could. That was his contribution to the war effort against Hitler.
Don't fall prey to those who break the commandment of G-d and bear false witness against their neighbor.
Shalom and G-d Bless You. Jim Lytle
p.s. Forgive me if there are many typos in the posting; the keyboard doesn't work as fast as I can think.
King Sean, I don't know if you are serious or you are just trying to cause trouble. Either way you are committing a serious sin when you write and think like that. You should be in fear of G-d's judgement. All you are doing here exposing your own misery in your own life. You need serious counseling. If you really hate Jews then you probally also hate G-d. Think about what you are doing and the consequences and where you might be spending your eternity. Think very hard about it.
To King Sean. That is not funny. You are no good guy. Shut up. To Rabbi Rosenberg. You are right with the Hitler Youth. It was my fault. But every seminatist was forces up to the Year 1939 to go in. Noboddy had a chance to change. There is a differnce if someone goes to the armee, because he believes in the politics or if a child is forced to do so. For what your Familiy and friends and relatives happend I´am very sorry about it. I can understand your fellings about this. I thing to open the archives are necessary, but I´dont think that someone is hiding anything.
I´ve made a spelling mistake above. It must be feelings not fellings, sorry.
Pope Benedict XV1 because of his experience with the Hitler Youth and precisely because he wanted no part of it, Nazism or Hitler, should bend bakward to make certain the archives are opened. Perhaps Pope Pius X11 did whatever he could to save Jewish lives. There are numerous books which portray him as one who did what he could under the thumb of Nazi rule. Open the archives and the truth will be known. Regarding the anti-semite in our midst, why has the editor not taken his comments out.
Mr. Bernhard you need to have animosity towards Darwinism which was the true motivation behind Nazism and which, inexplicably, is followed by the majority of Jews outside Israel.
By the way Mr. Bernhard history is a tough thing and it's difficult to say whether or not the Jews would exist today if not for Christians. I for one think they would not if you take even a brief look at the Islamic part of the world--or the secular world where they cease to exist as real Torah believing Jews.. Jews flourish and have derived all their power and influence from the Christian West. Indeed the loan Jewish state in the entire world would have been and would be at this very moment impossible without the intervention and support of Christian nations (themselves impossible without the founding of the One True Church I'll remind you).
Do you reserve any of your criticism for the tens if not hundreds of thousands of Jews who did far less than they could have, far less than Pius XII did to protect their fellow Jews?
Also I freely acknowledge and celebrate the fact that Christianity would be impossible without Judaism (I think God has been there since the start). The huge majority of Christians are proud of this symbiotic relationship and never cringe but revel in speaking of "the West" and all its men on the moon, medical breakthroughs and all the other blessings being a direct result of the majority of our people having followed the Judeo-Christian morality and ethics (or more rightly the God they help explain).
Refering to Jim Lytle's comment on the "controversial prayer" I would like to know how one can be saved. If one has not been made aware of Jesus as our one and only Savior then it is possible. But if one has been made aware of this proclamation and rejects it then that person will most likely not be saved. Mr Lytle's writings have the brush of indifferentism.
From certain Catholic perspectives, Pius XII represents the vindication of corporate Catholicism during the war years. Yet I am convinced that Catholicism does not need vindication through canonization. The Shoah is not ours to redefine. The Catholic perspective on the Holocaust should not be the creation of an alternate history, but rather Catholic introspection on what has happened to the Jewish people and the role of Catholicism before, during, and after the atrocities. This introspection should include the evil (such as Catholics who fomented hatred) and the righteous (those Catholics who jeopardized their lives to save Jewish people during the war.) Pope Benedict has touched on the Catholic need for self-examination, but not forcefully enough. Maybe placing an indefinite hold on Pope Pius' canonization might display a willingness to atone that speeches cannot readily communicate.
There is a day on the Catholic calendar for honoring saints without their own day on the church calendar (All Saints). If someone truly believes that Pius XII is a "saint", then he/she can silently honor him on that day. People are free to hold their personal opinions and beliefs about Pius's sanctity, but aren't entitled to a fixed Church narrative on the events of Holocaust and war.
I have a question to Rabbi Rosenberg. Why shouldn´t it be allowed for Catholics or any other Christians to pray for you, when you pray every day for the Christians ? Isn´t it an internal thing of every religion ? When someone is convinced by his believe she or he want to be the best for the others or not ?
I too have a question for Rabbi Rosenberg. What is your interest in having the archives opened? You continue to demand that it be opened, but you don't exactly explain why. How will you use the "truth" that you believe will be found in the archives?
Jacob. Yes Dawinism was the motivation behind Nazism. But without the anti-semtic teaching of the Church , it would not have been so easy for Hitler and the Nazis to murder Jews. Peter. We are all the children of G-d and who said Catholics and Jews cannot prayer for each other.
Shalom to all, The question has been asked in the comments as to why we JEWS want the Vatican to open the archives on Pius.By letting a independent review of Pius's actions,the question of what he did or didn't do would be answered.What is the Vatican afraid of?? As for adding Pius's name to your list of demi-gods,that is your business. Shalom, Yochanan
@ Yochanan Hardisty. And what will you do with the information once you have acquired it? Once the question of what Pius did or didn't do is answered, what will you do with the answer? What will it mean to you?
Rabbi Rosenberg demands open the archives why don't jews talk about zionist/nazi dealings instead.If the pope is going to be bashed it should be for deserting his post during wartime.How can we all be children of god when there is no proof of a god.Look at haiti,holocaust,gulags and show me a god there.
I would like to add to the comments above, perhaps redundantly, that Pope Benedict is motivated by love. Loving G-d, Catholics, lapsed Catholics and Jews are part of the same love. By loving G-d, he loves G-d's chosen people, the Jews. The Good Friday prayer is the greatest reflection of that love because as a Catholic he believes that salvation is found in Jesus, the Jewish Messiah. It would be UNloving and hypocritical of him to enjoy that salvation for himself and not long to share it with the very people to whom Jesus came. His desire for dialogue with Jewish people is his gentle and loving way to establish a real relationship that has been so scarred and to communicate G-d's love within that relationship. There is nothing contradicting there. I myself am a Jewish Catholic and am SO GRATEFUL for finding the fulfillment of my Judaism in Jesus Christ through the Catholic Church.
Rabbi Rosenberg: You state "But without the anti semitic teaching of the Church..." The Church is the Mystical Body of Christ on earth and the Pope is the Shepherd of the members of that Body from Peter to the present Benedict XVI. Do you not realize that your offensive attack against the Church & Shepherd is reminiscent of an event that happened 2000 years ago? If you want to attack look to the political figures of that period and to the Jews who remained silent.
To Rabbi Rosenberg. Thank you for your answer. You said, why can´t the different religiouns pray for the others. But why are so many jewisch people are so angry about the friday prayer ?
Why the rush to open the archives? You detractors already have plenty of evidence willfully being ignored. Nobody can satisfy the impossible bar of "doing enough" if it is up to those who hate the Church to decide.
Pius should be declared “Righteous Among Nations”. Shame on all of you who throw mud on his name.
“If the Pope in his Christmas message had intended to condemn Hitler’s system, he could not have done it more effectively than by describing the ‘moral order’ which must govern human society.” New York Times editorial, December 25, 1940
“The voice of Pius XII is a lonely voice in the silence and darkness enveloping Europe this Christmas.” New York Times editorial, December 25, 1941
Catholic Church leaders “are virtually the only Germans still speaking up against the Nazi regime.” New York Times news article, June 8, 1942
“This Christmas more than ever he [Pius XII] is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent.” New York Times editorial, December 25, 1942
Vatican Radio is quoted saying, “He who makes a distinction between Jews and other men is unfaithful to God and is in conflict with God’s commands.” New York Times news article, June 27, 1943
Commenting on the 1,200 German priests interned at Dachau, the Times says, “The arrests are linked with strong anti-Nazi and anti-war movements in the predominantly Roman Catholic section of Germany.” New York Times news article, August 13, 1943
Remarking on the German bishops’ pastoral letter condemning Hitler (which ended by thanking Pius for his leadership), the Times says, “The letter abounds in sly but fearless thrusts at the false god and Nazi tenets.” New York Times news article, September 6, 1943
When a Soviet house organ tries to tag the Vatican pro-Nazi, the Times goes ballistic: “Of all the incendiary literary bombs manufactured in Moscow…and thrown with such lighthearted recklessness into the unity of Allied nations, none is likely to do greater damage than Izvestia’s unjust and intemperate attack upon the Vatican as ‘pro-Fascist.’” New York Times editorial, February 4, 1944
After Rome was liberated, the chief Rabbi of Rome, Israele Anton Zolli, formally expressed the gratitude of Roman Jews “for all the moral and material aid the Vatican gave them during the Nazi occupation.” New York Times news article, July 27, 1944 “Being a lover of freedom, when the Nazi revolution came in Germany, I looked to universities to defend freedom, knowing that they always boasted of their devotion to truth; but no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers, whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks. Only the Catholic Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing the truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised, now I praise unreservedly.” Albert Einstein (1879 – 1955) -Time magazine, December 1940
“We share in the grief of humanity. When fearful martyrdom came to our people, the voice of the Pope was raised for its victims. The life of our times was enriched by a voice speaking out about great moral truths above the tumult of daily conflict. We mourn a great servant of peace.” Golda Meir ,1958
Genie. Jesus was Jewish . Blame The Romans who crucified him. Pontus Pilot was not Jewish. It is precisely this type of thinking that kept anti-semitism alive and convinced the world to hate the Jews.
Peter. This is a prayer for the conversion of Jews to Christianity. Why would Jews be happy with this prayer? Should we have a prayer in Jewish liturgy urging all Christians to convert to Judaism?
Shalom, So far in none of the comments has the reason for not Sharing what is in the Vatican Archives on Pius has been presented.As for what I would do with the information there on Pius and the Jews.If it was good deeds,I would work to help build better relations between Catholics and Jews.As it now stands,the issue still stands under a dark cloud. Need I remind you of your clergy's recent cover-ups on a recent issue. You know of which issue I write of.Open the Archives to the light of day and the church will be better for it. Shalom
Genie. P.S I do attack the political leaders of that time and the Jews who remained silent. I have written many books on this subject. There is a lot of blame to go around.
Interesting, the Pope is paranoid and the Jews are schizophrenic, maybe even paranoid/schizophrenic!
I just wonder with the unrepentent history of murder and mayhem the Zionist Jews have exercised in the Middle East since 1948 when the British and the Zionists 'did a number on the Palestinian people' living in what is now called Palestine' without even their consenting signatures or even a 'nod' to the affirmative, what factors come into play here that we can make some attempt cure our Jewish brothers from their addiction to murder and mayhem being visited 24/7 on the equally 'semitic' Palestinians - especially in Gaza where the carnage has reached epidemic proportions of recent date.
TheAZCowBoy Tombstone, AZ.
'God's chosen people?'
(Certainly, a conspiracy brought upon humanity by the early Hebrew translaters of the Holy Scriptures from the Greek, say I)
Phooooey, if the 'mostly' athiest Zionist racist killers of Israel haven't proven this to be a myth and in total contradiction of G-ds teachings to his children via the Torah/Holy Bible, then no one has.
Decency is not in the religion we practice, it is nurtured in the heart and comes from the teaching decent parents give their children because (look what the Jewish settlers on the West bank teach their children - that Palestinians are amaleks/animals that must be killed) G-d doesn't seperate us by skin color or creed - then why should the ZioNazi Jews try and do this in Palestine and the entire world
TheAZCowBoy Tombstone, AZ
Hello David Committe, Sr., We who believe that Jesus is the Son of G-d who died on the Cross for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day are obligated to believe in Him and follow Him for our salvation from eternal separation from G-d. If we who believe reject Jesus' call then our salvation is probally in peril unless the mercy of G-d intercedes for us bringing us back. On that I agree with you as that is the teaching of Catholicsm. The Catholic Church also teaches that if you come to the belief that the Catholic Church is the true Church then you are obligated to become Catholic; refusing this also places your salvation in peril. Those who have not come to the belief that the Catholic Church is the true Church are not obligated to become Catholic and can work out their salvation in the faith community where they are at whether they are Christian or Jewish (for that matter it also includes most of the other great religions of the world if they are religions of light, life loving, ascenting to that which is good, living out their lives knowing that they will have to give an account to G-d at the end of their life. This is the mystery of the salvation of Jesus Christ.)
Too many times I have encountered Christians (Catholics are not taught to do this) threatening "non-believers" with hell and damnation if they don't "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." If I were not already Christian I would never want to convert to Christianity if I were approached like that. These Christians then pass judgement on those they threatened saying "Well, you had your chance to accept Jesus; you said no so I guess you're going to hell." That is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
If you read the Christian Scriptures you will find that St. Paul, himself a Jew, as were all the original Christians, wrote that while the Jews have not stumbled so as to fall from G-d's grace in not recognizing Jesus, G-d put a partial blindness on the Jews preventing them from recognizing Jesus from then on "until the fullness of the gentiles be brought into the faith." You can not tell Jews that they are going to hell for not accepting Jesus if they honestly do not believe that He is the long awaited Messiah. You cannot be guilty of rejecting Christ if you honestly do not believe in Him. Emphasis in on the word: honestly. If a Jew or anyone else does recognize Jesus as the Son of G-d then the obligation to believe it there.
As for who is guilty killing Jesus Christ, I am guilty. He died for my sins and He did so willingly. Jesus Himself said that He has the power to lay His life down and the power to take it up again and that no one takes it from Him unless He allows it. You cannot blame Jews or Gentiles for it. That Jews and Romans were involved in bringing about His execution should be looked at as an historical event in both Jewish and Roman history. The Jews as a people were never guilty as claimed by those speaking from ignorance or maybe even malice if they have hatred for Jews in their heart. Individuals were responsible at the time if they did so with malice in their hearts committing personal sins, not entire peoples and their descendents. Remember also what Jesus asked His Father from the Cross, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." If G-d has forgiven all of the actors in that drama not one else has the right to make any accusations for you have not place to take your accusation. How do you know that some of those involved didn't later repent and seek forgiveness. Blaming the Jews for the murder of Jesus is to completely miss the whole point of the Gospel message and is off focus.
Hello Rabbi Rosenberg, While the Good Friday prayer for the Jews is for conversion to Christianity it is not understood as the conversion of someone outside of the faith or someone who is lost. More to the point the prayer expresses our longing for the Jews to recognize Jesus as their long awaited Meshiah since we believe that He is why would we not want His own people to also believe with us as He is your Meshiah before He is ours. I accept and understand that we are praying for something that on it face seems to be a violaton of your Jewish faith, i.e. to believe in someone as Meshiah when you don't believe He is Meshiah. I do fully appreciate that. I believe (confess) that this historical figure, Jesus of Nazareth, is the Meshiah fortold by all of the Prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures. For me that is a good thing. That is my faith. So when I pray on Good Friday and at many other times during the year for the Jews to able to come and share in this good thing I am asking G-d for good things for the Jews. If the Jews don't recognize Jesus I don't think it is a bad thing or that Jews are being stubborn for not believing; on the contrary, I believe that Jews who live out theirs lives as faithful Jews also do well and will also share in the Kingdom of G-d with everyone else in history that died in G-d's friendship. If a Jew honestly does not recognize Jesus as Meshiah it doesn't mean that his name is not written in the Book of Life. If Jesus really is Who we Christians claim Him to be it is G-d's decision, not mine, when and if He will show Him to His chosen people.
In Christianity there is a difference in Catholic understanding and the understanding of the rest of Christianity concerning the salvation of Jesus Christ. We are taught that our Catholic faith delivers to us everything we need for salvation. We are also taught that that doesn't mean that other people's faith don't also deliver to them everything they need for salvation. We do believe that anyone who is saved, i.e. their name is written in the Book of Life, are so because of Jesus' redemptive sacrifice on the Cross and His ressurrection from the dead. He paid for the sins of all mankind from Adam and Eve to the last person to be conceived at the end of the world. Catholicism is the offspring of Judaism; we came from no where else, in part or in whole. If we are the true Church then it requires that Judaism also be the truth, both before Jesus and since His coming.
Now I also understand that with the return of the Latin Tridentine Mass that the form of the prayer for the Jews that is causing problems sounds a lot more offensive than the prayer that is prayed now with the Mass said in English. Here is what is prayed now according to a decree from Pope Benedict XVI:
" Let us also pray for the Jews: That our God and Lord may illuminate their hearts, that they acknowledge Jesus Christ is the Savior of all men. (Let us pray. Kneel. Rise.) Almighty and eternal God, who want that all men be saved and come to the recognition of the truth, propitiously grant that even as the fullness of the peoples enters Thy Church, all Israel be saved. Through Christ Our Lord. Amen"
I looked up the old prayer in wikipedia, the 1955 version. If that prayer were to be brought back I would have trouble saying it. Here is the link to the wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Friday_Prayer_for_the_Jews
I have been Catholic my whole life (born in 1955) and have gone to Mass weekly my whole life and have even been more active in my parish for the last 25 years. I know lots of Catholics and have discussed many topics with my fellow Catholics over the years. From this I know that 99% of Catholics only have love and respect for Jews. A Catholic who regularly goes to Mass who harbors ill feelings towards the Jews is extremely rare.
Jim Lytle
In my opinion, Rabbi Rosenberg has the right to be critical of the Catholic Church inasmuch as some European anti-semitism has its roots in the religious conflicts between Jews and Christians. In the case of Pius XII, however, it is clear that he did move to protect a number of Jewish lives and was no supporter of the Nazis, but it is a valid point to suggest that he failed to forcefully speak against fascism. What is interesting about this continued debate is the fact that both detractors and apologists for Pius XII never mention anything about his predecessor, Pius XI, who repeatedly and forcefully spoke openly against racism, anti-semitism, and fascism in speeches and encyclicals prior to his death in 1939. The most likely reason he is so rarely mentioned is because his words were almost entirely ignored by Europeans of all stripes and in the appeasement days he was routinely criticized for his ineffective though just pronouncements. I suspect that Pius XII failed to speak out due to the fact that the previous pope's words had fallen on deaf ears and that the consequences for criticizing fascism were so much more deadly once the war had begun. Perhaps Pius XII's (relative) silence might seem deplorable but it appears a lot more understandable once you understand the historical context.
I agree with Rabbi Bernhard Rosenber. He has told the stinging, painful truth. Maybe, a compromise would be needed to open up the archives for matters related to WW2. A Rabbi and a Priest will give their word to G-d not reveal anything except that related to WW2. The Catholic Church can choose not to reveal information on other historical events. This is not cut and dry. Perhaps, if there were vicious teachings that may have been sponsored by the Church (I am trying to walk a fine line.) and it was, perhaps, centuries before WW2, but, some may say, indirectly or directly, prepared the mindset for acceptance of genocide against the Jews then it gets difficult to say it is or is not related to WW2. We need a team, a Rabbi and Priest, to investigate the Archives together. Together, they will decide what is important for disclosure. Fundamentally, Rabbi Rosenber is correct. And, if it were Catholics in the same situation as the Jews, then I would demand nothing less. G-d bless all.
I beg your pardon, Rabbi Rosenberg. I misspelled your name throughout the e-missive, if you will, and I wish to apologize.
Williamson the illicitly consecrated bishop had the excommunication on him and his allies lifted, but he is not allowed to function as a bishop or even a priest and his incredibly ignorant views on the shoah have been completely repudiated by the Pope. To descibe Williamson as having been "rehabilitated" is completely wrong.
Should he for instance undertake some serious historical research, as a holder of a Cambridge degree in English he would profit from some qualifications in History, and accept the teaching of the 2nd Vatican Council on Religious Liberty and Religions other than Christianity, perhaps he could be recognised as a proper bishop and "rehabilitated". Until then he remains in a curious situation, he should be ignored.
Let's not be too quick to accept the Ratzinger family's assertion that they "opposed the Nazis." If they really opposed the Nazis, it was the kind of opposition which is indistinguishable from support. The father never lost his pension. Neither son was expelled from school. Nobody trashed their home or beat up any family member. In Nazi Germany, all these things and worse happened to Germans who appeared even lukewarm in their support of Hitler.
Catholicism and Nazism were not the irreconcilable enemies Pope B. would like to portray them. Several Ustasha death camps were commanded by Catholic priests. The Catholic bishops commanded their adherents to vote in favor of the Anschluss. We have all heard or read Father Coughlin's opinions, but then, I'm sure around 1946 he discovered he had been opposed to the Nazis all along too.
As long as Pope B. peddles the lie that Catholicism was opposed to Fascism, he can't be taken seriously.
Karl Adam, a world class theologian and the author of many works including his "Spirit of Catholicism" wrote in 1933 ("Deutsches Volkstun und katholisches Christentum" Theologische Qualtalschrift, CXIV, 59) that National Socialism and Catholicism belonged together as Nature and Grace. Of Hitler he said "Now he stands before us, he whom the voices of our poets and sages have summoned. the liberator of the German genius. He has removed the blindfolds from our eyes and, through all political, economic, social, and confessional covers, has enabled us to see and love again the one essential thing: our unity in bloode, our German self, the homo Germanus".
Germany's leading theologian gave the lead and the rest of his church followed. One can accept the prudence of Pius XII in not seeking to provoke a reaction, as in the Netherlands, to out- right denunciation, but the silence of the German Church, with the honourable exception of the Provost of Berlin, is disgraceful. True thay offered some resistence to the killing of the unfit, but when the same gas vans were used to kill Jews they were silent. To the very end they backed the German war effort, with even the so called Lion of Munster saying to the Allies that his place was with the conquered people. Those Catholic members of the SS who sang "Silent Night" round the Christmas tree in their quarters at Auschwitz were complicit in mass murder.
Fortunately the German Church now is very different and the Pope has transcended his unfortunate upbringing. I am a Christian, an admirer of Benedict , and I have Jewish relatives who were murdered by the Nazis. Dominus vobiscum. Shalom.
This was insightful.
Why don't Jews open thier books for once and show the world thier true face. Your attacking the Pope as if he was half as dangerous to man-kind as the Zionism is. What Zionism has done to man-kind is much more far reaching than anything Hitler every did to the Jews. You have done everything that the true Judism is not supposed to do. BUT I DO GIVE YOU CREDIT FOR ACTING AS IF YOU ARE VICTIMS ALTHOUGHT YOU CONTROL THE WORLD'S MEDIA, THE WORLD'S FINANCIAL INSTITIUTION, MOST OF THE WORLD'S GOVERNANCE, THE WORLD'S MARKET'S & THE MOST IMPORTANT ONE, THE WORLD'S MOST DANGEROUS WEAPONS. All that said, I'am not an anti-semite, because the term "semite" refers to Arabs & not europe's finest jews, but what the heck you stole that too! SHALOM
Zionsim is merely the expression of the age old desire of the Jewish people to live in peace in their own land as says the Hatikvah, the National Anthem of the State of Israel. For centuries Jews have prayed at the Passover Seder that next year it will take place in Jerusalem. As a creed it arose because of the Dreyfus Affair when it was becomng clear to Jews that anti-semitism was such that for safety they had to have their own land.Reitlinger rightly observes in "The Final Solution" that the "final solution to the Jewish question is the State of Israel". Holy Scripture makes it perfectly clear, considered as a document whether inspired or not, that the Holy Land is the Jewish heimat. In 1900 there was practically nobody in the Holy Land except Jews in Jerusalem and Saefed and a few Bedouin the the rest of the area. Land titles were held by absentee owners living in the Lebanon. The vast expansion of population since then , both Jew and Arab, has been largely due to Jewish enterprise and Jewish capital. Riots and strife between Arab and Jew began in the 1920's with Al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and friend of Hitler who spent the war in Berlin and broadcast on behalf of the Nazis, and has continued to this day.
I was raised Catholic and this article is 100% correct. Especially this sentence:
"As a result, when Benedict XVI says or does things that affect Judaism, the key is often to understand that he’s not really talking to Jews but to other Catholics."
Another key to the Catholic Church, in my opinion, is that it tends to see itself as beleaguered , if not persecuted by the trends of modern-day society. In the 20th century, communism wsa viwed as a persecutory force. The descriptions of the visions of the Virgin Mary at Fatima, which occurred early in the 20th century, provide a good look at issues that frightened Catholics at that time and later.
The Catholic church prescribes a standard of morality (no "artificial" birth control, no homosexual activity, celibacy for priests, no abortion) that many people end up ignoring b/c the expectations are not reasonable. However these positions are more and more out of step with much of modern-day society. This has resulted in a self-image of being persecuted b/c the rest of the world really does not care to follow what Catholics believe in.
The Church was dragged, kicking and screaming, into having to do something about child abuse by clergy. I was abused by a priest so I followed these developments. The issues were brought to light by the secular media, most importantly the Boston Globe, and by a man named Frank Fitzpatrick who obtained a confession from his abuser and documented his abuse of other children.
The priest who abused me is now in jail for abusing someone else. He was stupid enough to confess in writing within the last few years. When I talked to the detective, nothing could be done b/c my testimony was regarding events that happened more than 25 years ago and I had no evidence. Of course at the time, no one listened to me.
However I hoped that I provided moral support to the guy who did come forward with the written confession.
Some Catholics are now starting to say that the media is persecuting them b/c of the stress on child abuse. They are pointing fingers at other organizations to try to essentially, change the subject. They are complaining about the payments made to individuals without thinking about the impact of the documented track records of moving offending priests from one parish to another. It has been fewer than 10 years since the subject of abuse was raised and the fact that people are already crying "persecution" is one reason I am not comfortable going back to the Church.
There are plenty of people who are more progressive but I get tired of the written commentary on social issues that I see from many Catholics. The Church in general does not have a good track record in honestly facing its flaws and bad actions, in my opinion.
While being in agreement with Iranaeus, indeed he merely echoes what Rabbi David Dalin said in "The Myth of Hitler's Pope"(2005), about Pius XII. I think I must question his use of evidence on the subject of the German Church. Do quotations from the "New York Times" tell us anything more than the opinion of that paper? If you want to prove resistance on the part of the German Church why not find, if you can, a denunciation by a bishop or a German Catholic theologian of the shoah, of the Gestapo, of any aspect of the war effort? Gunter Lewy "The Catholic Church and Nazi Germany" has assembled a massive weight of evidence suggesting the tacit acquiesence of the Church in the Nazi system. He suggest that one reason that Pius XII was restrained in his remarks was that he feared that the great mass of nationalistic Catholics would ignore him and follow the Nazis. Hitler was never excommunicated.
I do not see how Pius XII faced with the Church in Germany as it was then, and the Lutherans were worse, could have done any better.
However this is by now long ago and Germany is much changed. Outside the monastery at Beuron in Swabia there is a placque commemorating the sojourn there of St Edith Stein, born a Jew of Breslau and murdered at Auschwitz. It is ornamented by a large Morgen David. Such a saint, celebrated in such a way, is a fit symbol of the essential unity of God's Covenants.
Mr Allen,If you knew the History of the Vatican and the Formation of Islam,You would not be so gracious to the pope.Please see the WATCHMAN BIBLE STUDY- THE VATICAN AND ISLAM. Or read about the vatican at Maria Merola-Double Portion Inheritance. Israel Should reject the vatican in all events. A total wolf in sheeps clothing.Israel`s Only FRIEND is BIble Believing Christians like me.I support Israel 1.000% and am a member of the Temple Institute Website. GO BIBI-Attack Iran Soon!!!
I suggest that the Rabbi also open up all the secret records of his religious community, from the night the Sanhedrin put Christ on trial until now. Share with us the inside details of the activities of your religious community the past two thousand years.
It is a historical fact that many Jews have participated in revolutionary movements that killed many innoscent people, such as the Bolshevik revolution, yet we do not see some sort of world outcry demanding transparency of the Jewish community's most intimate political decisions in dealing with the gentiles.
Practice what you preach and then I will take you more seriously.
As for the Vatican archives and Church records during the Nazi era, I think you will be very disappointed when you find that there is no rope to hang the popes with in them. Pope Pius saved thousands of Jews in the regions of Rome, and millions of Catholic faithful faught to free the world from Hitler's occult schemes. It seems ungrateful for certain modern Jews to attack the very pope who secretly and directly saved thousands of Jews in Rome from extermination. Such activity to save Roman Jews is well doccumented and well known.
That is why one of your chief rabbis in Rome during the Nazi era converted to the Catholic faith.
You complain about Pope Benedict being in the Nazi Youth, but you know well that it was mandatory, with severe consequences for not only the youth but for their families ass well.
Shall we also make a big media show about all the Jewish people that were coerced by the Bolsheviks to participate in the radical extermination of millions of Orthodox Christians and political dissidents in Russia? Perhaps we can have more movies about Bolshevik atrocities and mass graves, the desicrations of Churches, the rape of nuns, murder of school teachers, sending engineers to the Gulag because they did not please Stalin.
Or perhaps a good doccumentary about the Israeli snipers who shot an Orthodox Monk in the Church of the Nativity when Palestinian terrorists baricaded themselves in the Church.
We modern Catholics do not dig up the old bones of atrocities committed by Jews of the past because we do not blame entire groups of people for the crimes of particular individuals. The Catholic Church is not to blame for Hitler or the Holocaust, occult societies are. Go investigate the occult and then you will find something to rail upon.
The Rabbi is entitled to fantasize about a Vatican/Nazi conspiracy. Perhaps when he unearths the "plot", he can become a wealthy screenwriter. It's a free country after all.
BTW, WWII was the Holocaust. I lost two uncles(basically kids), who wore the American uniform then. You don't get to be the only one who feels the pain of loss Rabbi. It profoundly affected the whole of humanity.
So, and with all due respect sir, internalize that.
I see all the anti-semites are raising their ugly heads. The term anti-Semitism was coinded by a Germnan Willhelm Marr, not Jews. Regarding the Pope ,I have repeatedly said that I am aware of the many books which say Pope Pius X11 did whatever he could.Regarding internalizing my feelings , never. It would require a lengthy discussion regarding crucification of Jesus. Regardless, Jesus was a Jew and in my opinion a great man. of compassion. Would he have been happy that six million of his brethren were murdered because Europe had been ripe for anti-Semitism due to the teachings of the Church that said that Jews killed Jesus.The Holocaust was not World War II. It was the attemt to destroy world Jewry. I am sorry about the death of the two uncles who died as soldiers. My family was murdered as innocent civilians because they were Jews.
Thank you to all the sincere people who have added to this discussion. We are all trying to find a way to live together in this world.I have been very active in interfaith work, including serving as president of one of the largets groups in America. I will continue to reach out. Again to those who our G-d revering people of all faiths may His light shine upon all of us.
My sincere condolences as well Rabbi. And as the late Pope used to say, "no more war".
May Hashem bless us all.
IRENAEUS. Thank you for your many relevant quotes. I am old enough to remember Jewish leaders praising Pius XII for his support during the War. Sir Martin Gilbert's book The Righteous : The Unsung Heroes of the Holocaust, Doubleday 2002, examines each country and its attempts to rescue Jews from Nazism. Italy stands out, and the Italian army wherever it went, for its refusal to harm Jews. In France and elsewhere the Catholic Church stands out for rejecting Nazi racial views. In Germany itself the Catholic Church was the main opposition to Nazism. Protestants accepted Ayran Christianity, worshipping Ayran blood with Hitler as a national saviour, while Catholics tended to avoid racial theories, believing Jews can convert and be saved. The present negative view of Pius XII seems to date to The Deputy.
A pox on all religions.
Joe -While agreeing heartily with you in your defence of Pius XII I cannot accept your statements concerning the Catholic Church in France and Germany. Generally speaking the Catholic Church was strongly supportive of the Vichy regime which collaborated enthusiastically with the Nazis anti-Jewish policy ,while in Germany it was if anything either supportive of Hitler or opposed to any attempts to get rid of him. It was conspicuous in its lack of support for the bomb plot, and supported the war effort to the very end. It greatly hampered the Pope who it is suggested would have denounced the Nazis and excommunicated the Fuhrer if he could have been certain that the German church would support him. As for racial theories Germany's leading Catholic theologian expressed himself thus : "the myth of the German, his culture and his history are decisively shaped by blood". The spread of Nazism in religious organisations was not confined to those Lutherans who accepted the Aryan paragraph - and the Confessional Church was perhaps more outspoken than any Catholic authority.
As for Richard perhaps one might say that there is a pox on all belief -systems,including atheism whether marxist leninist or not, it is called original sin. .
I was at first very reluctant to respond to Mike Grace's absoltely disgusting attack on Jews and our faith,but I decided to offer a very restrained critique.Mike calls upon Rabbi Dr.Rosenberg to "open all the secret records of his religious community" from the time of Christ's trial to the present time.Although I am not a scholar of my own faith,I know of no "secret records." Jewish history and Jewish religious law are an open book and, are indeed, no secret.Maybe Mike is looking for the means by which Jews have survived the hundreds of years,perhaps the 2000 years of Jewish survival in the face of pagen,Christian and Islamic unspeakable hatred and brutality. Yes,Jews were involved with revolutionary movements over the ages,beginning with Abraham and continuing with the American revolution and Italian unification,and,in our time, with the renewal of an independent and sovereign Jewish State.Mike asserted that in the revolutionary process innocents were killed and Jews were the cause.Well Mike doesn't seem to realize or is not familiar with the history of revolutions that many Jews lost their lives,including in the Boshevik takeover of the Czarist government.In particular,the Bolsheviks destroyed organized Judaic faith in Russia and nearly ended it in the nearly 73 years they were in power. Regarding the conversion of the chief rabbi of Rome,many Catholic priests over the years since then have done the reverse and converted to Judaism. Unfortunately in warfare,innocent people become casualties.Since the Church of the Nativity was taken over by Palestinian terrorists and used the innocent to shield themselves,the Palestinians invited the IDF to respond for the terrorists were a threat to the innocent inside and outside the church. Finally the casting off hundreds of years of the Catholic Church's anti-semitism is utter nonsense and an example of a hate filled mindset that brought about the Holocaust.Ignorance is no excuse,neither is bigotry.
My mother was a "hidden" child in southern Francy from 1939-1945. Her entire family, about 40 people, were en route from Antwerp, Belgium to Marseilles, France with secured passage to the US when the war broke out in 1939. They were stuck in rural, Vichy France. At the time, there were 8 young children in the group, my mother among them. She and her cousins were hidden in a convent where only the Mother Superior knew they were Jewish. They were taught never to mention their religion, or they or other family members may be killed.
What does this have to do with your post? Pope Pius X1 was the "head man" overseeing convents, churches, monasteries, etc. I have no direct knowledge of what might be hidden in his records, but according to my mother and her cousins, they are 100% convinced that the edict of the Catholic hierarcy was clear - do not let ANY of these Jewish children return, they must be made Catholic. while the nuns were very kind to my mother's family, they were not mis-treated in any way, each surviving family member recalls there was an absolute clarity to make these children Catholic. My grandmother and her sisters had a very difficult time retrieving their children once the war was won. She asserted on many occasions it took numerous requests and a group effort to do so. This conversion of Jewish children was well documented and is referred to in an earlier post.
Ultimately, who really knows what is contained in those records? Until their information is made available to the public, only speculation exists. If I were doing PR for the Vatican, I would want to highlight any positive experiences. Thus, the inference is that the information must be evil.
I appreciate the comments by sincere Catholics who have opened their hearts and given me an insight into the fundamental attitude of the Catholic church towards Jews. Obviously the Pope acts for the benefit of his church and within his Catholic faith. He is not a politician running for public office, and while he tries to be as diplomatic as possible, he has an agenda. If that comes across as "patronizing" I don't think it's worth being offended. As a Jew I respect the teachings of Jesus and the efforts of my fellow Christians to live their lives in G-d's grace.
Lots of people here seem completely unaware of how the vatican archives work. Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_Secret_Archives and stop the paranoia. The records are released pope by pope after being indexed. The indexing of the documents from the time of Pius XI was completed in 2006. Pius XII is the next in line, except for the documents relative to the secretariat of state which have been already indexed due to their importance in relation to the holocaust. The contention that the vatican is "witholding" the archives is just ridiculous. If you can't wait, make a donation so they can hire more archivists (last I heard the staff was barebones)
(I was the first "Bill" responder above, not the second and/or third.)
Mike Grace: If you consider what the Jewish community has gone through for the last nearly 1900 years, you would realize that there are no secret archives of Jewish papers. (I am, of course, exempting the State of Israel archives, whose records go back sixty-ish years. Those are classified. And not very old.)
We have been a people on the move since, well, 586 BCE, and more especially since 135 CE. We have lost records repeatedly. Ghettos and stetlach were burned in the Middle Ages during pogroms specifically to destroy Jewish records, and no, the fires were not started by Jews. In especially onerous periods our holy books were confiscated by "secular" authorities, and burned. In Paris in 1242 every Talmud the authorities could locate was destroyed. Two hundred years later Tomas de Torquemada attempted to replicate this in Spain.
During WWII in much of Europe the Nazis attempted to expunge the memory of the Jews (aside from their bizarre Museum of an Extinct Race in Prague), and they did a pretty good job of destroying our records.
I wish we had archives that went back three thousand years. We don't.
I would wager that the oldest copy of the Talmud in existence is, in fact, in the Vatican.
Our books are open. Our prayer services are open. Everything has been translated. You want to know what the Talmud says? Read it.
You want to know what the Zohar says? Join Madonna at the Kabbalah Center.
You can get translations of the Dead Sea Scrolls. Every resource I have access to you have access to. Every resource my rabbi has access to, you have access to. Every resource ANY rabbi has, you can get.
I don't believe the Roman Catholic Church has opened the archives to all and sundry.
The SILENCE OF ROME. WILL BE HEARD... They have records of the Babylonian Captivity and Bill it was Napolen took some to Paris and from there fell in the hands of the italian government. Papal paperwork and black magic of all kind....the worls has never seen evil that can come up from this.
Didn't anybody remember that this pope admitted to being a NAZI YOUTH. Duh! How should he react but to remember his indoctrination in the Nazi movement. We cant punish all the christians for some of their acts and there were christians like shindler who helped our people. This pope is following company line of supporting the catholic church stance on these issues. People here seem shocked that a clergy leader is this hardlined when in our jewish religion there are too many who call themselves rabbis who do not care about the torah, tenach, and gemorah; they are willing to bend completely.
Upon review of all comments regarding Pope Benedict and his seeking to improve relations with the Jewish Community, I really think the opening of the Vatican Archives regarding the activities of Pope Pius XII during the Nazi era would go along way. I say that for two reasons. First, for the record if nothing else! Any serious study of World War II, its' origins and aftermath would be incomplete without it. Let the facts fall where they may and the arguements on all sides take place. This is healthy no matter how controversial and unpleasant it may seem. Since the late 1960's when US State Department records were released showing America's supposedly ambivelant response to the Holocaust, much heated discussion and debate followed blaming President Roosevelt, the State Department and everyone else under the sun for not doing enough to help the Jews. Most of the dust has now settled and events are viewed in a more realistic manner. The same should be done with the Vatican Archives. Secondly, this leads to increased discussion and understanding between the Catholic and Jewish communities so they can iron out their differences that have existed for nearly two thousand years. I am sure that Pope Pius like President Roosevelt had to deal with the realities of the time and not have the luxury of living in the ideal world of academia or something comparable. The opening of the Vatican Archives would be a major step towards increased conciliation between Catholics and Jews, something long overdue.
Psalm 127....Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, THE WATCHMAN waketh but in vain. It is vain for you to rise up early, to sit up late, to eat the bread of sorrows: for so he gevith his beloved sheep. Lo, children are an heritage of the LORD: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.
Membership of the Hitler Youth and BDM meant membership of what critics such as Shirer described as the most dynamic youth movement in Europe. Many young people joined it, as did one of my neighbours, because of the scope it gave for athletics, for marches, for music, and for healthy outdoor activities. My neighbour joined it in the spirit of rebellion against her mother, and became a high jump champion. It did not necessarily imply an ideological acceptance of the regime and not to join singled one out with one's parents as not being loyal Germans. One should not read back into membership approval of what became known about the camps etc. Incidentally my wife was a member of Habonim - a Zionist organisation illegal under German law - and her father was in Dachau and died presumably at Riga, but we get on well with German neighbours whoc belonged to the only youth organisation permitted in Germany in the 1930's. It would have been very odd if the Pope had not been obliged to be a member of the HJ.
The rebuilding of G-D'S Temple
Joel 3...For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
Joel 3...And it shall come to pass in that day, that the mountains shall drop down new wine, and the hills shall flow with milk, and all the rivers of judah shall flow with waters, and a fountain shall come forth of the house of the LORD, and shall water the vally of Shittim.
Joel 3 For I will cleanse their blood that I have not cleansed: for the LORD dwelleth in Zion. Genesis 12....And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Jeremiah 31,..Behold, the days come. saith the LORD that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.
Psalm 51..Behold, thou desirest truth in the INWARD PARTS: and in the HIDDEN PART thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Jeremiah 31..Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jeremiah 31..But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their INWARD PARTS, and write it their HEARTS; and will be their G-D, and thy shall be my people.
Ecclesiasted 3...I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of man, that G-D might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts; For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all ONE BREATH; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
Ecclesiastes 10..There is an evil which I have seen under the sun, as an error which proceedeth from the ruler.
Jeremiah 33...For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel; Neither shall the priest the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. Ecclesiastes 12...Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit return unto G-D who gave it.
Job 33...The Spirit of G-D made me but the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
Did Jesus a Jewish man reorganize, the Catholic church???? And if so, could someone give light...to how he set this up?
History, states that it was Constantine who made up Catholic doctrine. To him the plan of government of the Roman Empire was an obession, and adapted that form of government to the church, forming the Papacy. So there you have it, " the set up of the Roman Empire, and Ecclesiastical State Government, which in it constitution and its, Adminestration System, was shaping itself upon the IMPERIAL MODEL. And not according to scripture or to the Jewish man that knew scripture and the word of G-D----not to mix--pagan worship or days with G-D and what you give him, for G-D will not mix!
This pope is looking to reconquer Europ: wrote: Rachel Donadio, if not in numbers then at the political table. That makes my heart flutter. We are not to be fools and not see or remember. History is screaming at us! Can you not hear it? It's saying we ought to be alarmed, at what mankind can do and has done, in the name of god. Not our true G-D.
Donaido all so stated he recongnizes as many in the mainstream now do, that this pope is on a personal crusade to restore Catholicism to the heart of European polilics.
The pope at work....Donaido reports...When Blanded at the airport on Fri.12, he was greeted by French Pres. Nicolas Sarkozy, who rejected the tradition of greeting leaders at Elyee Palace and actually welcomed the pope at the airport. Sarkozy then escorted the pope to Elysee Palace, where , within hours, the two wasted no time in laying groundwork for what could be the biggest change in France Reveloution. The dominate theme of the Pope"s trip, established in his first public address, was that France needs to ---RETHINK--- and---redraw it's church state relations! He stated he wants advocated a positive secularism, that allows for greater mingling between religion and government, and allows for religion to improve,(as the Pope will determan how to improve society!). Sarkoy said, Blantly! , that it would be "madness" for France, which accepts its Christian roots to deprive ourselves of religion.
Could someone please provide a summary or translation of the posts of Mdme Cartier? I must confess to being quite lost as to how they relate to the subject of this discussion. Perhaps she might help. Brevity might be useful.
Mdme Chartier .Please what does "oppended" mean? Im not aware of "whining", indeed I would much prefer wining, and I am certainly in favour of free speech, but I do find your contributions tedious,badly spelled, far too long, and contributing little if anything to what could be an interesting discussion. They are difficult to read and decipher. Indeed it would help us all if you exercised a little more care so that we can recognise a word rather than having to guess at what it means. It is however useful to read quotations from a variety of people, as you seem to be able to copy correctly, even though they are sometimes of scarcely arresting value. I would be very happy to read a detailed refutation of anything I say, and while freely acknowledging your right to say what you want, reserve the right to criticise it in substance and style. All I asked for was a translation, a very reasonable request.
Sorry about my typing, spelling is bad, my english is not good, I should read, it first... thank you.
Why does this pope like the previous pope desire a New world Order? Is this leading to a One world Government? He moves, and sets up plans for EEC, goes in their own counsels? Does the Rabbis go and other religious leaders? NO! Why? I see a take over of the world politically and religious groups and many see the same thing.
The pope has left Rome and now makes claims to land in Israel, and it's come make a deal. You give up David's place of rest, and we will give you in exchange the ancient synagogue in Toledo Spain which was converted into church after the expulsion of Jews in 1492. Tell Him keep them, no deal, our King David was a man after G-D'S own heart, he was brought forth to be called a Son of G-D. NO DEAL! This pope is on the move, History is screaming at us, and is saying we ought to be alarmed. He wants control over the holy land, and making claim to now what he says is the place of last supper, was to have taken place. This place is the burial of King David and Solomon , Rechavam, Assa, Chezekiyahu and Amatzia. Read more on Arutz Sheva Israel National News.com The Vatican took the land of the synagogues all over Europ, we should make claim to all in exchange for the many churches in Israel. Should EXPULSION OF HIS CHURCHES TAKE PLACE he would be up in arms.
The word is a offended for oppended, sorry
Do you know the name of the Pope that set up this day Christmas? And do you think he read at all Jeremiah chapter 10, before he moved a large group of people to be called .....heathens. Do you think, your, pope whom you love, and state is good has read this also. And do you think he would move to remove it from the Catholic worship?