Orthodox Women To Be Trained As Clergy, If Not Yet as Rabbis
New Yeshiva Seeks To Challenge Tradition While Maintaining It
By Anthony Weiss
Plans for a new school to train Orthodox women as clergy are pushing the issue of the role of women in Orthodox Judaism to a new and untested frontier.
Rabbi Avi Weiss, a leading advocate for a more liberal Orthodoxy, and Sara Hurwitz, a protégé of Weiss, are now taking inquiries and applications for Yeshivat Maharat, a four-year program set to open this fall to train women as “full members of the Rabbinic Clergy,” according to an e-mail announcement. But they will not, as of yet, be called rabbis.
“We’re training women to be rabbis,” Hurwitz told the Forward. “What they will be called is something we’re working out.”
The move appears to place Weiss and Hurwitz at the precipice of what is possible under traditional Orthodox law without actually jumping off. In striking that balance, they are risking the possibility of alienating those to the left who want an equal rabbinical role for women and those to the right who argue that spiritual leadership is incompatible with the place of women in Orthodox society.
“My best guess is that we are seeing further evidence of a coming division in Orthodoxy between left and right,” said Jonathan Sarna, a professor of American Jewish history at Brandeis University. But, he noted, “Rabbi Weiss has not only been able to push the envelope, but to do so successfully.”
Though the Reform, Reconstructionist and Conservative movements all have ordained women as rabbis for decades, and have long viewed men and women as having all the same rights in religious matters, the Orthodox world has continued to maintain limits on the communal functions women can perform. According to Halacha, traditional Jewish law, a woman cannot sign a marriage or divorce certificate, preside over a conversion or be counted as a member of a minyan.
Indeed, Orthodox rabbis note that it is not merely the title of “rabbi” that is controversial so much as the actual roles women can and cannot play in the community.
A number of advocates for the rights of Orthodox women have been steadily pushing for several decades to expand the education and role of women in Orthodoxy. One major trend in recent years has been a greater emphasis on Jewish education for Orthodox women through such programs as the Drisha Institute for Jewish Education, which has offered intensive programs in Talmud study for women. Women have also taken on more high-profile instructional roles at Jewish day schools and some have taken official spiritual roles within synagogues. Though there have been only a few reported instances, some women have even been privately ordained as Orthodox rabbis.
Indeed, the new program has already spurred criticism that it will make women’s roles in Judaism a more charged issue.
“I don’t see how this promotes the growth of women’s learning,” said Rabbi Yosef Blau, spiritual advisor of Yeshiva University’s rabbinical seminary. “It makes it more controversial and more difficult for women who are ready and who are committed to learning.”
He added: “There are already programs of advanced study for women. If any women showed interest, or if shuls showed interest, in something like this, they would be doing it.”
But Weiss has experience in successfully pushing the boundaries of Orthodox liberalism while still remaining a respected, if controversial, member of the Orthodox world. His recently established Yeshivat Chovevei Torah has become an important training ground for progressive and social activist Orthodox rabbis who, despite resistance from a number of prominent leaders, have found jobs and roles in mainstream Orthodox institutions.
Weiss told the Forward that unlike existing institutions, the new women’s yeshiva would be focused on the development of practical pastoral skills, including textual study on common communal issues, pastoral psychology and training, and internships at schools and synagogues. The program will be modeled after the five-year course of study that Hurwitz recently completed under Weiss’s tutelage, after which he conferred on her the newly invented title of “Maharat.”
Weiss stressed that the halachic limitations on women would be observed, and thus some functions still would need to be performed by men. But that did not mean that women were fulfilling any less of a leadership role, he said.
“The Orthodox model is not the Conservative and Reform model, where the roles of men and women in general and in leadership are identical,” Weiss told the Forward. “In Orthodoxy, the roles significantly overlap, but there are very clear distinctions.”
Blu Greenberg, a leading Orthodox feminist, praised the yeshiva initiative as a “path-breaking and revolutionary” extension of long-standing efforts to advance the role of women in Orthodox society. She said that the title of “rabbi” might have been preferable, but added, “There’s nothing like facts on ground. The power of one model or 10 models is worth more than a thousand discussions or arguments on the subject.”
The school has already received “close to 10” inquiries, according to Weiss, and it will likely open with a small handful of students this fall at the Hebrew Institute of Riverdale, Weiss’s synagogue in the Bronx. But it is unclear exactly, for what the women will be training. Weiss said that graduates could serve as leaders at schools and on campuses. But women already hold leadership roles both at Orthodox day schools and at Hillel Jewish student centers on campuses around the country. Meanwhile, the number of Orthodox congregations prepared to accept a woman as a member of the clergy, in the way that the HIR has accepted Hurwitz, appears, at present, to be extremely limited.
That practical reality might limit not only on what graduates can do, but also who may apply to the school in the first place.
“The fact of the matter is, if you have a situation where you can only go so far and you can’t go to the top, what you’re going to lose is the people who want to go to the top,” said Rabbi David Silber, the founder and dean of the Drisha Institute.
Ultimately, Silber said, the limitations on the role that women can play as spiritual leaders are inseparable from the limitations on women in Orthodoxy in general.
“I think it’s a much bigger question, which is the entire status of the woman,” Silber said. Referring to the separate seating for the sexes in Orthodox synagogues, he asked: “What if she should be a rabbi in a big synagogue and she sat in the balcony. What would she do, slide down a fireman’s pole to give the sermon?”
Contact Anthony Weiss at weiss@forward.com.
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interesting
Your article, I believe, and without any support, gives false credence that Avi Weiss' views are becoming "accepted" in mainstream Orthodoxy. This is inaccurate, and indeed, false. Those in the Orthodox community see Avi Weiss and his group/Yeshivot for what they are. Rather than pushing the boundaries of Orthodoxy, he is pushing the boundaries of Conservative and Reformed Judaism.
It is truly sad that, in the call for "more learning," Avi Weiss and his group have failed to learn the true meaning and values associated with the roles, and indeed distinctions, between men and women under the Torah.
Conservative Judaism has been ordaining women rabbis for decades and has been shrinking for decades. If liberal Orthodoxy wants to go ahead with female ordination, I'd encourage it.
All the large religions in the world have male only clergy. This is because women will go in large numbers to services lead by men, but men won't go in large numbers to services lead by women. This is true everywhere.
As the mother of two orthodox jewish girls, I can see nothing but good in this. What issue could anyone see with more intensive studying of torah going on in the world? I am sure that Rabbi Weiss has no intention of these women performing any activities that they are prohibited from performing under halakha. But there are many activities for which there is no such prohibition. Why restrict them from doing these unless you simply have an objection to women leading communities?
This article is underscored by a dual fallacy-that the spiritual leader of YCT and The Hebrew Institute of Riverdale is both within the mainstream of Modern Orthdoxoy and that he is a person to whom major and minor halachic and hashkafic inquiries are directed to by the overwhelming committed majority of Modern Orthodoxy's rabbis and laiety, as opposed to one of many addresses on such questions such as when to organize a rally, etc.
Orthodox Judaism understands that women are generally more naturally inclined to a higher level of spirituality than men. There are also other significant differences between men and women within our greater commonality. As such, men have obligations and roles to fill in Judaism which bring them to a higher level of spirituality and brotherhood. This includes men serving in the capacity of rabbis. Introducing women as rabbis will have a negative impact on men in Judaism. Proof of this statement is the decreasing involvement of men in non-orthodox Judaism. Moreover, orthodox Judaism results in a significant bonding between male participants that is crucial to keep men developing their manhood within a G-dly context--which substantially contributes to their being better husbands, fathers, friends, and community participants. Also, there are issues of modesty between men and women which are important. In addition, young Jewish children, especially boys, need the healthy male role models that can be found in a good orthodox rabbi. I could go on with other reasons, but I'll end here. Please don't misunderstand, this does not take away from the vital contributions by women in the synagogue and community. Nor does it limit a women's right to equal employment in the general job market within the scope of job specifications and requirements. Indeed, within the job specifications and requirements for an orthodox rabbi, a man is the most appropriate candidate based on the reasons and others stated above. Moreover, I would also argue that the rabbi should preferably be a married man. And of course this does not mean to in anyway discriminate against single people in the general job market etc. In essence, liberal ideas like what Weiss is introducing sound so very nice, but in practicality it's a different story.
Hallelujah!
Where do I send my check?
When you see the successful efforts women have made at congregations such as Jerusalem's Kehillat Shira Hadasha, it's clear that the new yeshiva is part of a new reality. The times, they are a changin', and there's no going back.
Please allow me to add the following to my previous remarks stated above.
The late and great Irving Bunim of blessed memory was the foremost layperson in Orthodox Judaism in the 20th century. I urge everyone to do at least some research on this tremendous tzaddik. There is no doubt that Orthodox Judaism in America would not be where it is today without our fortune in having had Mr. Bunim on this earth. Mr. Bunim, among so many things, used to teach that people are wrong when they say that "we have got to fit the Torah to the times." Rather, Mr. Bunim would teach that "we have to fit the times to our Torah." Truly, the wisdom of a Torah based life--including both the common and different roles of men and women--is something to be carefully and lovingly retained and perpetuated.
I am observant, but let's be honest here. For the most part, the genesis of non-d'oraita restrictions on what women can halachikly do, must be related to men's own inability to manage their own reactions to women.
So let the women become rabbis. There is nothing in the Torah that prohibits it. Men, if you are so easily distracted from kedusha in the presence of women, then it's your problem, not theirs!
Maybe if we sit on the other side of the mechitza, we'll gain a different viewpoint on the whole matter!
Onc upon a time Orthodoxy didn't celebrate bat mitzvah or commemorate Yom Hashoah during the month of Nisan. Today for the most part they do. Change takes time. But it won't happen if it doesn't start. So now we've begun . . .
With all the good work that Rav Weiss does in the social field, it ios a pity that he goes off the long end on the issue of feminism.
This can only cause damage to the legitimate positions that he holds.
Before I affiliated with the Orthodox world, I remember being at the Jewish Theological Seminary when the debate for women in the rabbinate reached the students. Prof. Joel Roth, a very respected Halachacist within the Conservative movement, supported the move provided that women Rabbis refrain from certain acts - routinely performed by the modern Rabbi - that were prohibited by law. I and other students opined that once women were Rabbis, they would take over these prohibited duties nonetheless and turn the movement into a non-halachic entity - de jure (the de-facto practice has long been - for the most part - absent of a commitment toward Halachah). How true we were then and how much more weakened has the movement been since.
Fortunately, R. Weiss' direction is very much at the fringe of Orthodoxy but there is a slippery slope that is, unfortunately, being greased up.
Congregation ShiraHadasha in Yerushalayim appeals mostly to the Conservatives. The Conservative, Reform and Reconstructionist models are failed models. More and more Halaha observing women are getting superior educations, lets leave this to the rules of nature and see how it evolves. The "egalitarian" and "pluralistic" modes are disasters. One hardly finds men in Conservative and Reform temples and over 50% of the graduates of the Reconstructionist insitution are gay.
In his arguements against female rabbis Sam writes "there are issues of modesty between men and women which are important." But this is an arguement FOR female rabbis. Having female rabbis would allow women to ask their shilas of another woman and prevent male/female interaction.
Hi Sharon: Issues of modesty have to do with how we relate to each other--given the nature of men and of women. If it's a private matter requiring woman to woman discussion on a halachic issue, it can obviously occur without messing up everything else I mentioned in my posting. It seems to me that a number of the responses do not understand the impact women rabbis will have on the issues of men and religion and men and their developing their manhood in G-dly ways (rather than other ways). Moreover, it also will substantially impact on women--both in term of how men develop and how it affects their family and community life AND in terms of detracting from what women best bring to the faith.
Again, there are certainly ways where women can discuss their private halachic issues with other women without messing things up. Moreover, women should have important community roles. For example, look at Rebbetzin Esther Jungries. Sharon, do you really want to go the way of non-orthodox Judaism--especially seeing how the facts show that men are becoming less involved in these movements. And Sharon, even if you still disagree with me, please consider the other vital points I mentioned. Trust me, while men and women have more in common than differences, there are differences. These differences need to be developed in G-dly ways where both men and women provide benefit to all good people. What could be more important in such development than religion.
Michael states: "Men, if you are so easily distracted from kedusha in the presence of women, then it's your problem, not theirs!"
Michael, this is a rather limited and inaccurate attack on Orthodox men. Rather, please consider how men best develop in a G-dly manner through their roles and responsibilities in Judaism and through the vital ways males relate to other males in Orthodox Judaism.
If anyone foolishly chooses to not better understand how men best develop in a G-dly way, the consequences will be quite negative to both men and women. Again, this should not be misread. Obviously, women have vital roles in the faith upon which has depended the very survival of our people as well as family and community life. As I said intially, women are generally more naturally inclined to a higher level of spirituality than men. One last time, mess around with nature in the best way men develop in G-dly ways and it will only bring many men to lower levels rather than higher levels which will negatively affect all of us.
I cannot imagine being of sound mind and spirit, disciminating against anyone of my children. In who's name? G-d's? I doubt it. Time for women and men to come together and allow all to go forward equally.
Sam,
Yes, as a matter of fact, I do want to go the way of non-Orthodox Judaism. I am a proud member of a vibrant non-Orthodox congregation with a dynamic female rabbi. We are so cool that we recently made Newsweek's list of the top 25 synagogues. While there might be fewer men in my congregation (not saying there are, just saying it's possible), the men who are there are awesome. They are mature enough to be able relate to women as individuals and not as sex objects; they are secure enough with themselves that they are not threatened by a woman in a leadership position.
Hi Sharon:
Thank you for your response. And that's of course your choice to go the way of non-orthodox Judaism. Please know that I certainly don't consider a non-orthodox Jew to be more or less religious than an orthodox Jew. Each of us are on different levels in our development and capabilities. Only G-d can judge us in the overall religious sense. My disagreement is with non-orthodox Judaism which I do certainly reject. It's absolutely not a rejection of someone who is non-orthodox or anything else. Also, I would never imply that there aren't good people in your congregation. Indeed, I would hope all the people in this discussion are good people. At the same time, some liberal ideas which sound very nice are ultimately not very good or worse.
You state: "They are mature enough to be able relate to women as individuals and not as sex objects; they are secure enough with themselves that they are not threatened by a woman in a leadership position."
This seems to imply that those of us who are orthodox affiliated relate to women as sex objects etc. This is false. And you totally miss all or most of all I've been saying. Rather than repeat myself, I will simply say that if you are making such implications, you are wrong. Truly, both men and women need to be leaders in Judaism by developing and living their manhood and womanhood in the most effective ways. This must by necessity at the very least take into account the differences in men and women as I've discussed.
As for Newsweek being quoted, and this is separate from the religious discussion, Newsweek has become a highly biased magazine that is far less than objective. Many years ago, prior to obtaining my Ph.D. and other graduate degrees, I used to enjoy reading Newsweek. Since that time, I've noticed the decreasing objectivity--possibly because of my training in research methodology.
Last, but not least, we all as human beings share the most important characterists related to our potential in developing into truly good people. The added on differences related to being men or women, Jews or Gentiles, etc., should be developed in the best ways to bring out and enhance the most important commonality we all share as human beings.
Sam,
I am not missing anything of what you are saying. I understand what you are saying perfectly well - I just happen to disagree with it. You have stated several opinions as fact and offered not a shred of supporting evidence. Perhaps that flew in your doctoral program but it didn't in mine and I don't accept it from my graduate students either.
You are absolutely correct that I believe a significant portion of Orthodox men can only relate to women as sex objects, etc. My male collegues are perfectly capable of working with me as a professional, the men who belong to my synagogue can sit next to me while we pray, but an Orthodox man has to be spared the sight of my elbow lest he have impure thoughts.
Hi Sharon:
There are many scientific studies showing the differences between men and women. My purpose in responding to this issue was to raise important points for people to further consider and research.
What concerns me more than our difference of opinion is your nasty way of attacking others of a different opinion. Are you perhaps one of those "liberal" professors who must go after those who disagree with you in such a nasty manner? Your negativity and false claims are very sad for me to observe.
Anyway, I said all I wanted to say so I won't write further. I sincerely wish everyone in the discussion all good things!
Good Shabbos,
Sam
Sharon, I understand you farely well, you look to up to Newsweek for validation, others amongst us look to our history and halka. To each his own, excuse me her own.
A problem with this is that is taking place with an English vocabulary. This language prejudices the discussion in that it brings in values that are not part of the Jewish experience.
It is the same vain of linguistic and cultural assimilation that led to the failed Jewish experiments in Germany and today has us talking about "egalitarian, plurailism and the values of the democratic party " as essentialy Jewish values.
Shabbat Shalom
To coin a phrase:
"People get the religion they deserve."
Both tradition and Halakha in traditional Judaism lean heavily on actual experience: "Go out into the street and see what the people are doing." says the Talmud.
21st Century America is not 11th century (CE) spain, nor is it 5th century (CE) Babylonia.
'Adapt or die' may not be a slogan that is pertinent to the future of mainstream orthodox Judaism in America; their high birthrate will assure continuity. However, the relevance of a male-only clergy may diminish among the majority of American Jews who wish to retain their ties to the religious community and at the same time are adapting to a changing social structure in the secular world.
And, if we forget,regardless of differing traditions, that we are all in the same boat together, there will always be the Hitlers and the Arafats and the bin Ladens and the Ahmadinejads to remind us. They have a much narrower view of the halakhic differences among us.
Hershele, The majority of American Jews are assimilating. They have left the Torah, the Hebrew language, Shabbat, Kashrut and have replaced them with "kosher style","pluralism", "egalitarianism", folk dancing, rallies, parades,fund raising and single sex unions, mixed marriages and yes low birth rates. If that is what you mean by actual experience you and Sharon and Forward are welcome to it.
Sam's avuncular and condescending manner may make him seem old, wise, and kindly to some, but to me it hints at a deep misanthropy.
Sam uses the fallacy of 'well poisoning' in an underhanded attempt to discredit Michael without any educing evidence: "If anyone foolishly chooses to not better understand how men best develop in a G-dly way, the consequences will be quite negative to both men and women."
In opposing Sharon, Sam sets up the 'straw man' fallacy to make it appear as though Sharon wrote something that in fact, she did not write: "This seems to imply that those of us who are orthodox affiliated relate to women as sex objects etc. This is false."
Later Sam whines to Sharon, "And you totally miss all or most of all I've been saying." This is an underhanded attempt to put Sharon in the wrong, for being too obtuse to see Sam's point. In fact, far from obtuse, Sharon was merely disagreeing.
Next, Sam attempts to discredit Newsweek as biased, through his use of a double insinuation, claiming that he enjoyed the magazine before he became highly educated. The implications of this double insinuation are: 1. that Sam is highly educated, an insinuation for which Sam supplies no evidence, 2. that highly educated people cease to enjoy Newsweek, a second unsupported insinuation, which is preposterous on its face. Sam's exact words, so that readers may see for themselves: "Many years ago, prior to obtaining my Ph.D. and other graduate degrees, I used to enjoy reading Newsweek."
In view of Sam's unethical treatment of other commenters, I say that he lacks the moral standing, and perhaps comprehension, to advise anyone on any halachic or other matter.
Hi Stuart:
You also seem to attack people rather than respond in polite manner. You also took my statement out of context. This seems to be typical of many who claim to be liberal thinkers, yet...
I offered my thoughts for consideration. For those who can appreciate it, fine. For one's like you, I suggest you first learn some basic Derech Eretz.
Shame on you Stuart; you are the one acting unethically!
Good Shabbos,
Sam
PS
I really should wind up on a positive note. I want to thank Evan Rock for certainly contributing to my thoughts on the subject.
Sam
There closing up shop here at the old folks home. I just want to say that if there was anything I could have said in a better way, I do apologize. Of course, I believe in all I said and hope it will be considered. And truly I think it was wrong for Stuart to attack my ethics and morals. In all my correspondence, I was never nasty. Quite the reverse. This is the best way to truly end this exchange on my part. It's something us old folks know well!
I suppose the next logical step would be to have men installed in positions formerly exlusive to women, such as mikvah ladies, and maybe non Kohanim doing the Priestly blessing. I assume the absurdity is self evident. Perhaps then the notion of diverse and singular roles for the different sexes and people within our ( at least orthodox ) community can be better understood from this perspective.
Great point Josh!
Also, I was thinking about Sharons's comment when she said: "You are absolutely correct that I believe a significant portion of Orthodox men can only relate to women as sex objects, etc." I strongly disagree. During the decades of my life, this hasn't been my experience. If anything, one major reason I'm affiliated with orthodoxy is the way Orthodox Jewish men BY FAR don't talk about women in such manner. It's so different from the general population of when guys often get together (although, similar to Orthodox Jews, I've also noticed far less talk about women in such manner among Evangelicals and various other religious groups). In addition, what evidence exists for such a statement? Moreover, it concerns me that a professor would have such an opinion for what should be very obvious reasons.
PS:
I also considered Sharon's point on evidence related to some things I said. This is a very reasonable request on her part. For example, I stated:
"Moreover, orthodox Judaism results in a significant bonding between male participants that is crucial to keep men developing their manhood within a G-dly context--which substantially contributes to their being better husbands, fathers, friends, and community participants."
Without doing a paper on the topic, I would respectfully refer people to the many studies on men and their development etc. Of course, seek out those studies utilizing better research methodology. And then draw your own conclusions. As stated: My purpose in responding to this issue was to raise important points for people to further consider and research. In addition, seek out studies on present day male involvement in the various Jewish denominations. Some other participants in this discussion presented some information related to the empirical findings in this area.
Last, but not least, related to the issue of modesty, just remember that you're never fully dressed without a smile! I don't have any studies to offer on this issue of which I'm aware, but I think objective observation and common sense should suffice.
Sorry if I over posted. I have, however, (other than anyone who choose to be wrongly attacking others) enjoyed the contributions of the participants. Thanks!
WHATEVER happens, please keep separate seating! It is soooo important that the synagogue be one big...happy...family. There's yin, there's yang, if you will; nothing sexist about it. There is strength and beauty in appreciating and honoring the balancing of positive/negative energies on a holistic scale.
Separate seating validates the communal nature of Judaism. Its loss is a profound one for Conservative/Reform.
Smooching couples have time enough for togetherness elsewhere and at home. In fact, elsewhere and at home are where a lot of female leadership dramas may most suitably be enacted.
I think the Orthodox have to look around them and see what is happening in the world. The notion that women have inferior intellect ( Cal Dat) and cannot make good witness is passé. Women today are in every conceivable profession and job including combat soldiers. The past when women were bought and were kept uneducated so they could not move from their inferior position no longer exists. I am a member of a Conservative Congregation in Israel, but I was educated in an Orthodox Yeshiva and I must admit it felt strange when women were emancipated. However, today we enjoy their full participation in all our activates including prayer and saying Kaddish. The Orthodox should stop walking backwards into the future and join the 21st century
1. For the journalist - in religion as in politics, please follow the money! Please report on who are the sources for funding for this new direction, especially at a time when other institutions are cutting back. 2. Should we be thinking of Modern Orthodoxy and Traditional Orthodoxy as two separate entities on the spectrum? Is the gap growing?
Lighten up guys: It's time for "Avi and the Rabbinets"- coming to HIR for the holidays...
Israel, was to be an nation of priest to the Most High. We are to seal up our hearts and minds with the desire, to know our G-D, in truth and wisdom in the hidden part. Ps. 51 .
It is written in Isaiah 1....The ox knows its owner and the donkey its master's crib; but Israel does not know, my people do not understand.
Yes, woman if they turn to G-D and desire to do His will alone and put sin out G-D of truth will let them know wisdom in the hidden part, and they can help set G-D'S people on the path that leads to Him.
Is it not written in Isaiah 1 .....But rebels and sinners shall be destroyed together, and those who forsake the LORD shall be consumed. For you shall be ashamed of the oaks in which you delighted; and you shall blush for the gardens that you have chosen.
Is it not written also in isaiah 2 O house of Jacob, come, let us walk in the light of the LOYD! This address, :house of Jacob" Treats the community as children of the great promises in Genesis and is offered as a call to worship. But nevertheless entry into this worship entails an embrace of the commandments, the two sided tabblets that were broken by Moses and all people down through the generations of this earth.
It is written in Ps. 51 ......behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts ( heart and mind ) and in the hidden part ( the foundation of G-D'S temple were He is our Capstone and we become a small roak that G-D is using to build His temple that mankind nor sin may inter in or defile. ......It is written at the end of this verse and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Read Jeremiah 31 where it is also written about the ones that did not give up their free will and do the will of our G-D who made us. It is written in Job 33 The Spirit of G-D made me (flesh) but it is the breath of the Almighty that gives me life. The life in the G-D of Host. These are the people that give their hearts over to G-D alone.
Read Jeremiah,,,,31 those that waited for G-D to write on there inward parts the law. why do we wait?
Sam, we need proof! You claim decades of being alive...and advanced age. ALL THIS without a shred of evidence. Are we supposed to belive that you are actually not a 23-yr-old. Clearly, you are laboring under some sort of fallacy, perhaps "Poisoning the Well", maybe "Begging the Question", I can't remember the other possibilities, I'll check with Dobie Gillis, but I'm sure Stuart or Sharon can find a name to call it, or you.
It's interesting reading all the comments asserting what men and women objectively want, need and are like when you get to their essential natures. Regardless of what people's individual experiences are (experiences conditioned by both religious training and the culture(s) they inhabit), it seems clear that all these assertions are still theories and beliefs, not facts. It also seems clear that if we're going to allow people to reach their full potentials, we need to err on the side of opportunity, not constraints based on one theory or another. As a practical matter, this means that men need to rise to the occasion and manage their "impure" thoughts, rather than constrain women so men won't be tempted by them. Oh, and by the way, there's plenty of gay men and lesbians in the community that have to "restrain" themselves when they're sitting in a sex-segregated section. They may be the only people in Orthodoxy that actually commit themselves to restraint without having to impose constraints on others in order to succeed.
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